Men of Common Virtue

Interview With Author James Bradley

Senior Editor Gordon I. Peterson initially interviewed James Bradley on Iwo Jima in March 2001 during a visit by U.S. military veterans and their families organized by Military Historical Tours. Bradley, who gained international recognition following publication of his critically acclaimed book Flags of Our Fathers, responded to several additional questions in September, following the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

Sea Power: Mr. Bradley, since the horrific events of September 11th, the profusion of patriotic displays of the "Stars and Stripes" seems to mirror the public's reaction to Joe Rosenthal's epic photograph of the flag-raising on Iwo Jima's Mount Suribachi nearly 57 years ago. Do you agree?

BRADLEY: From Francis Scott Key to us today, when Americans seek hope amidst the rubble they turn to our flag.

Is there an enduring relevance in the example of those Marines and Sailors who fought on Iwo Jima for today's younger generation of Americans?

Yes. The premise of my book is that the flag-raisers were not unusual Americans different from us--they are us: ordinary Americans of common virtue. That's the strength of this country. That hasn't changed. And that's good news for all of us.

Turning to your book, what led you to write the story behind the actions of those six young men--five Marines and your father, a Navy corpsman--who raised the second American flag on Iwo Jima's Mount Suribachi, captured in what has been called the most famous battle photograph in history?

BRADLEY: My dad would never talk about the flag-raising--it became a non-subject and non-event to him. My sister said that bringing a book home on the subject of Iwo Jima would be like bringing home a copy of Playgirl magazine--it would be something you'd have to hide.

Incredibly enough, we were basically blocked from having any information about Iwo Jima in the house at all--the flag-raising or whatever--because of my dad. It was out of respect to him. We didn't really understand why that event was a non-subject, but it was. We just went on with our lives.

After my father died, my brother, Mark, was searching for my dad's will in his office. Mark opened the closet door, and in that closet we were shocked to find three cardboard boxes filled with material and memories relating to Iwo Jima--even a letter to my father from John Wayne.

We rummaged through the boxes and at the bottom of one was a letter that my father wrote to his parents from Mt. Suribachi three days after the flag-raising. In that letter, my father said that he had "a little" to do with raising an American flag on Suribachi, and it was the happiest moment of his life.

Well, I just cried and cried reading that letter thinking that my dad is dead, and I know nothing about the photograph that captured the happiest moment of his life at the age of 21. For the rest of his life it was just an affliction he couldn't talk about. What's going on here? There was this mystery about my father. Then, when I looked at Joe Rosenthal's photo of the flag-raising--the most reproduced photo in the history of photography--I was struck that it was a photo of people. Everyone knows the photo, but nobody knew who those guys were.

I was shocked that at the age of 44, with a degree in Japanese history and the son of one of the flag-raisers, I didn't know who those men were! I also didn't know who my dad was--and why he was happy or unhappy about that moment. I didn't set out to write a book. I set out to find my dad.

How did you piece that puzzle together?

BRADLEY: I just picked up the phone. I called the flag-raisers' families and all the veterans I could find who were on Mount Suribachi that day in February 1945--just to piece the story together. At a certain point--this is true--I woke up one morning and realized that I had some fabulous stories. No one in the world could ever get these stories by calling the families as I did, because they wouldn't talk to anyone else. I had these stories, and I thought I should write them down.

You also learned that your father had been awarded the Navy Cross on Iwo Jima, our nation's second highest decoration for heroism, yet he did not mention that in all the years you knew him. Why?

BRADLEY: I think the answer may be found in knowing that my dad probably held 200 young American boys in his arms as they died--boys dying on Iwo Jima who were screaming in pain and often calling out for their mothers. I don't think my father could accept the fact that he was seen as a hero when he felt he was just trying to help out--to do what he was trained to do as a Navy corpsman. To save lives.

You cried when you read the letters in your dad's cardboard boxes of mementos, and you saw the citation for your father's heroism in saving Marines under fire. Your father also refused medical evacuation after receiving severe wounds and continued to aid his Marines. What other revelations were contained in those boxes of memories stored away for so many years?

BRADLEY: There were just clues--no big revelations. There were many strands of a story. A photo of my father in the Oval Office with President Truman. A letter from John Wayne asking my dad for his autograph. These strands helped me to place into perspective what these flag-raisers achieved and who they really were. To me, he had always been just my dad.

As a 10-year-old or 15-year-old, your dad's not so fascinating. He's a dad, an old guy! But as I learned more, I began to realize who these guys were and what they meant to America. I also saw the misperceptions that people in our country have about those men who raised the flag. Go to the Marine Corps War Memorial in our nation's capital and you see outsized heroes--bigger and somehow braver than anybody. I concluded that my dad was just an ordinary guy, and I thought that perhaps these other flag-raisers were just ordinary Americans too.

Was there one quality that personifies them all?

BRADLEY: Common virtue. Admiral Nimitz's [Fleet Adm. Chester W. Nimitz's] tribute to the men who fought on Iwo Jima is engraved on the base of the Marine Corps War Memorial. It says, "Uncommon valor was a common virtue." I set out looking for examples of that uncommon valor. I called Jack Lucas [former Pfc. Jack Lucas, awarded the Medal of Honor for saving fellow Marines by throwing himself on two Japanese hand grenades] to ask him what was the spark that allowed my dad to be decorated with a Navy Cross?

I called all these heroes, and I became frustrated in my search because all I could find were ordinary guys--soft-spoken men who said, "I didn't do anything special; I just did what anybody else would have done. Everybody there was a hero." I kept hearing, "I was just doing my duty."

After a while, I realized the problem was with me! I was looking at the wrong end of the equation. I was looking for uncommon valor. What I didn't realize is that my dad's life and the lives of all the other men on Iwo Jima had more to do with common virtue.

These men were good boys before Iwo Jima. They were good Marines when they helped each other on Iwo Jima. They were good men after the war when they came home to help build the local community swimming pool, to assist with the meals-on-wheels program, and to perform similar civic services. They were community-minded family men. It is in their ordinary, somewhat boring, never-makes-headlines common virtue that I find the heroism by which the battle of Iwo Jima was won.

Were you able to learn why your father described his experience on Suribachi as the happiest moment in his life?

BRADLEY: First of all I have to be clear. He wasn't describing his role in the flag-raising that we think of--the scene in Joe Rosenthal's photograph--because that was not a moment to be recalled. They had just raised a larger replacement flag after the first flag-raising. Contrary to a misconception at the time, that was not a staged event--Rosenthal captured the second flag-raising with his camera faithfully--and just barely.

At the time, that flag-raising was not significant enough for them to really think about. What struck my father was another moment that Rosenthal captured on film that day on Suribachi --a posed "gung-ho" group photograph of cheering Marines standing by the second flag. That was the moment that my dad was writing home about--and that Franklin Sousley [Pfc. Franklin R. Sousley, another flag raiser, later killed in action on Iwo Jima] wrote home about in his letter. They were cheering and feeling good because they were all together--posing for a photo as they stood by their flag on top of Suribachi.

Why was that the happiest moment in his life? Because his regiment's job was to seize the mountain. For five days they had looked at that mountain and taken frightful fire from the Japanese. They had seized their objective.

They were ordered to take the high ground.

BRADLEY: Yes. You take the high ground to win the battle. So they took the high ground. They did their job, and they thought that was it. After a rough, tough five-day battle, they were standing underneath their flag. It wasn't so much the flag-raising; it was having a flag--a victory and no more dying. Thirty percent of his friends were casualties at that point. That slaughter could stop. They weren't being fired on. They were exulted. As my father later said, "We were just happy."

Then, of course, even more frightful carnage continued for another month--with more than 26,000 U.S. Marines and Sailors killed and wounded.

BRADLEY: Yes, but that instant was still the happiest moment of his life because it represented victory.

It is unfortunate that a misunderstanding in 1945 led some to believe that the photograph of the second flag-raising was staged by Rosenthal, but the record is quite clear on that account, correct?

BRADLEY: Yes. There was no doubt in Rosenthal's mind. He shot the second flag-raising so quickly that he never saw it in his viewfinder. When he later heard that one of his photos made the news he thought that it was his staged gung-ho group photograph taken some minutes after the second flag-raising. That was the only image that was imprinted in his mind. He was sure that was the photo that was famous. He did not learn until later that it was his shot of the actual second flag-raising that so captured the hearts of all Americans.

Do you still encounter confusion on this point?

BRADLEY: Yes. Some Americans who don't know the true story think Rosenthal's photo of the second flag-raising was posed. They have absolutely no knowledge of the facts

You conducted close to 300 interviews during your research. How difficult was it to reach back over five decades to reconstruct the lives of these young men and their experiences on Iwo Jima?

BRADLEY: There are two sides to research. One is the military research. That is pretty easy because of the military's organization and records. There are lists of names. There are veterans' reunions with people to interview. Much has been written on the battle for Iwo Jima.

The more difficult part for me was finding people who knew the men as youths in their hometowns. These people are much older now, and many have died. But I was in sales in my younger years--the number one pots-and-pans salesman during my summers off at Notre Dame. As funny as it sounds, my sales experience was a big help in making this book a success.

I called many people who told me, "No one's here alive that knows them." Great! I would pick up the phone and call again. Then I would be told, "I remember him, but I don't remember anything that I can tell you." You just keep going. The details gradually become known.

You first returned to Iwo Jima, with your family, in 1998--to a place the Marines consider sacred ground. What did that visit mean to you?

BRADLEY: It's just so stunning to stand on Suribachi where they raised the flag. You can look down today on the beaches where the Marines landed and realize that you can see whether or not someone is wearing a hat. It's that intimate. Every single Marine that came across the beach was viewed by thousands of Japanese--in their target sights. The fields of fire were all preregistered. It is beyond belief that anybody got off that beach alive.

My sister, who has read my book a couple of times, could not really comprehend how intimate the situation was for her own father until she stood on Mount Suribachi on this trip. My dad landed on February 19th only 400 yards away from the top of the mountain. It took five days to go those 400 yards.

They were eating, sleeping, walking, and fighting underneath the stare of thousands of the enemy with guns aimed and firing at them just 200 yards away. I don't know how any of those who survived pulled themselves together mentally to get their lives together after the war.

What have you been told by the small number of surviving Japanese veterans with whom you have spoken?

BRADLEY: I asked one Japanese veteran, "When you saw the ships coming in, what did you think? Did you think we will beat them, this is a loss, I have to die? What did you think?" This veteran looked at me, and he said, "Mr. Bradley--think? Think? You say 'think,' Mr. Bradley? Mr. Bradley, do you know the Japanese Army? They said turn left--you turned left. They said turn right--you turned right. Think?" And then he sat down. That stunned me, but I've come to realize that the Japanese Army in World War II was another name for a penal system. Those guys were in a penal system. It was a Gulag.

The Japanese Army of World War II was a closed, horrific system in which everyone beat the next guy down the chain in descending order. The soldiers were brutalized. We hung Japanese war criminals for what they did to our young men and women, but we should have hung them also for what they did to their own soldiers.

What do those Marines who fought on Iwo Jima tell you about your book?

BRADLEY: I don't mean to blow this out of proportion, but I sense a universal acceptance of how the book captures the experience of young Americans on the sands of Iwo Jima. I'm not a military historian, and I don't think of my work as a war book. It is 365 pages long, and only 100 pages cover the events on Iwo Jima. It is a story about a small handful of guys. It's a story about six boys.

I've received great responses from the veterans when they turn out at book signings. I am very gratified that they have given it their stamp of approval, but I am more gratified that the book is putting the spotlight on the veterans. That's where it belongs.

I'd like to quote from your book's description of the slaughter that the Marines experienced on Green Beach just below Suribachi. You wrote, "Somehow the Marines kept advancing, somehow discipline held, somehow valor overcame terror, somehow scared young men under a sheath of deadly fire kept on doing the basic gritty tasks necessary to keep the invasion going." How did the Marines achieve the seeming impossible on Iwo Jima's killing fields?

BRADLEY: They were Marines. The Marine Corps was brilliant in how it bonded these boys. The kids who hit the beach on Iwo Jima were bonded--often more tightly than a family. They knew the names of each other's sisters. They knew their buddy's parents' situation and where they were from in the States. When they hit that beach they were fighting for each other.

During my interviews I never heard phrases like, "And then the Japanese killed Tony" No! It was, "And then Tony got hit!" It was, "Tony got hit, and I'm worried about Tony, so I grabbed him and I said, 'Tony.'" One corporal told me, "On Iwo Jima it wasn't about fighting or dying or living--it was about helping your friends." I heard that from everybody. One, Bob Lane, said, "Semper Fidelis ["Always Faithful," the Marine Corps motto] meant sticking with your buddies--you always knew you had a chance if you had a Marine near you."

That is how I think the battle of Iwo Jima was won. I just assumed that the battle of Iwo Jima was won because we hated the Japanese more than they hated us. I didn't realize that it was the quality of love that won the battle of Iwo Jima--a Marine's love for his fellow Marine.

Many wounded Marines, some of them injured quite seriously, refused to leave their fellow Marines during the battle. Beyond training together, how do you cultivate that level of esprit and self-sacrifice?

BRADLEY: The Marines were an all-volunteer force. That's number one. Second of all, the Marines--then and now--set a very high bar of excellence and develop pride within the unit. It begins from the day they're recruited, and it is really developed at boot camp. All I can say is that these Marines were emotionally bonded before they entered battle.

When subjected to the pressure cooker of battle, they just wouldn't give up on their buddies. Many Marines and Navy corpsmen hid their wounds so they wouldn't have to leave their buddies. Corpsman George Wahlen was injured in his eye. He patched himself up so he wouldn't be evacuated. The next day his shoulder was disabled by machine gun fire. He patched himself up again so that he wouldn't have to leave his platoon. On the third day, his ankle was shattered--his foot was hardly attached to his leg. He taped it up, injected himself with morphine, and crawled back on the battlefield. He had to be pulled off. That is George Walen, another recipient of the Medal of Honor.

I asked him, "Why?" He answered, "I just didn't want to leave my buddies to the care of anybody else."

I spoke with one Marine in the 31st MEU [Marine Expeditionary Unit] who escorted our tour group of veterans during their return to Iwo Jima. This gunnery sergeant told me that his wife of seven years read Flags of Our Fathers recently. At one point, he watched her set the book aside, break down, and cry. He didn't understand, because he had not read your book at the time. When he asked his wife why she was crying, she replied, "I really didn't know what it means to be a Marine. Now that I've read the book, I understand." Have you heard similar anecdotes from today's Marines?

BRADLEY: That anecdote is probably the most poignant and complimentary comment I can possibly imagine. I have heard from many Marines who told me they cried when they read my book. I suppose that says a lot about what it means to be a Marine.

I certainly didn't know what it meant to be a Marine when I began my research--and it's not like my book is a work of fiction. I did the interviews. I wrote down what they said. I tried to capture it all.

You really have to give credit to these former Marines coming to the fore today, more than fifty years later. They still honor and pay tribute to Marine Corps values. This phenomenon isn't so much me, because I didn't decide to bring anything out. I just picked up the phone to talk with them.

One, Tex Stanton, told me, "You go into the Marines to be the best. We had the hardest training. We hit the toughest spots. We were the best." Well, what's there for me to interpret about that? The Marines fought and won an absolutely impossible battle, and it was the most valorous month in our nation's history.

Some years ago, there was a letter written to the Washington Post complaining that sculptor Felix de Weldon's bronze statue of the flag-raising for the Marine Corps War Memorial glorified war--that it was not an appropriate display in the nation's capital. How would you respond to that person's concern?

BRADLEY: I don't know. I don't try to interpret the photo at all in my book. Almost every single book or article written in the past 56 years about Iwo Jima interprets what that photo means to America, what it should mean, and what it means to the writer.

I think the photograph's meaning is a very personal thing. Everyone can have their own interpretation. I think it's a wonderful country when we can put up monuments and people with divergent opinions can criticize them!

What does the monument mean to me? I see six people who could have been high school buddies. I don't see it as a symbol--that's my dad up there! When I go to see the monument, I see six guys whom I have come to know.

When I think of the flag-raising I think about the photograph. What the photo represents to me is not that these guys were uncommon, valorous heroes. I see them as men of common virtue--ordinary American boys doing their duty. That is the beauty of their stories and their moment in history.

During your speaking engagements, are you asked if today's generation of young Americans are equal to the same levels of courage, commitment, and sacrifice?

BRADLEY: Yes, audiences ask me if I think today's generation could ever rise to the challenge. Well, frankly, that line of questioning strikes me as total garbage! The photo taken on Mount Suribachi shows ordinary Americans doing their job. With kids today there's not a lack of spirit--there's often a lack of challenge. Given the horrendous events of September 11th, I am sad to say, there will be challenge enough for everyone. I have no doubt that all Americans--young and old--will be equal to the tasks ahead. I think the youth of our country will rise up and be tomorrow's greatest generation.

Some say that American youth during World War II had been toughened by the Great Depression. Give me a break! Young Germans were eating gravel compared to us. We were softies by comparison. Americans were challenged. They responded. That's the lesson. There's nothing wrong with today's youth--look at the magnificent example of young firefighters and police at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. I have every confidence today's young people will follow the example of that earlier generation of Americans who responded so magnificently when they were challenged.

When I observed you on Iwo Jima surrounded by today's Marines--tough, lean, and young Marines, I might add--you radiated a special glow.

BRADLEY: I like the spirit I find in Marines--the "can-do," the positive. Marines are the best warriors in the world. We are so very fortunate that America has them to serve us today. I'm also very happy if my book resonates with their traditions--and if I have helped in some small way to pass on some of their spirit and legacy to today's Marines.

Does the Marine's brand of leadership appeal to you?

BRADLEY: One of the flag-raisers I think about in that respect is Mike Strank [Sgt. Michael Strank, later killed in action on Iwo Jima]. Mike is a standout hero to me because of his style of leadership. It wasn't a top-down style of leadership--somebody who throws his weight around, somebody who lords it over everybody. Mike was not like that. He never talked about himself.

Mike's Marines loved him to death--and they do to this day. They told me that they would have given their own life if Mike could have survived. Why? Because he truly had their interests at heart. He didn't eat in the sergeant's mess; he ate with his boys. The Marines tried to promote him before Iwo Jima, but he turned it down flat. He said, "No, I promised my boys I'd be there for them." He saw himself as serving his boys rather than serving as a domineering sergeant who these guys just had to listen to with no questions asked.

Mike Strank had to be scared stiff. He was human. But on the beach at Iwo Jima, he stopped to empty sand from his boots--just to show to everybody: "I'm here, and I have my wits about me." I think he is a very good example of leadership--whether it's in the military, a corporation, or in a family.

I understand that another book might be in the works?

BRADLEY: I'm working on a book called Flyboys. It's about the best aviators in the world--Navy and Marine aviators taking off from their aircraft carriers to participate in operations in the Northern Pacific around the Bonin Islands--including Iwo Jima--toward the end of the World War II. George Bush [the older] was one of them--he crashed into the sea during one mission.

That is a very obscure battle. Why were we bombing those various jimas--those small islands that lead from Iwo Jima into the mouth of Tokyo? I've uncovered some very interesting information that isn't generally known. I am doing the interviews right now, but I would like to identify more pilots and aircrewmen who were there--men from squadrons assigned to the USS Yorktown, USS Bennington, and USS Randolph.

I hope to bring them to life just like I brought the flag-raisers to life. When my dad was standing at the base of Mount Suribachi--before he walked up with the 40 other guys to put up the first flag--Navy pilots flew in between them and the mountain and blasted Suribachi with napalm.

There was great teamwork between the Marines on the ground and those carrier pilots. I hope to be able to move forward from my book on Iwo Jima to expand my story to what happened in the Northern Pacific. I want to learn more about the experiences of those young boys out there facing life-and-death situations so I may interpret it for a larger civilian audience.

If you reach just half the measure of success that you have achieved with Flags of Our Fathers, your new book will be a "must read." Thank you very much. *

[Ed. Note: Learn more about James Bradley and Flags of Our Fathers on the web at: www.iwojima.com . Learn more about Military Historical Tours at: www.miltours.com . The editors express their appreciation to Norman T. Hatch for providing photography from his private collection. Then-Warrant Officer Hatch was the photographic officer for the 5th Marine Division during the battle for Iwo Jima.]